zen nudist

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Posts by zen nudist

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  27

  Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation;.

  colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;.

  colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.. colossians 1:18 and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.. colossians 1:19 for it was the good pleasure `of the father' that in him should all the fulness dwell; asv.

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  zen nudist

  from a different perspective.

  Paul/Saul, a greek raised wannabe pharasee [note he worked for the Saducee preists which NO self respecting pharasee of that day would do]. hallucinated a risen christ and preached him far and wide in the manner of the greek gnostics of the mystery schools of his day. The concept of the divine LOGOS or REASON was known in that time, the facalty by which the divine manifested creation, as John 1:1 puts it in distant echo of Pauls prior letter to the Colossians... The Jews seem to have NO concept of a trinity god and still reject such a notion except for some kaballahists who were influenced by mystery schools themselves... It seems no stretch to see that Paul mixes at times the roles of the god-man christ with the ultimate divine... which in the mystery schools was not alien and unreachable but the goal of all humans, where the god man role was the model of all to follow and aspire to... to be ONE with GOD as I am ONE with my father. [john 17:11,21].

  Trinitarians often ignore the fact that NO ONE ever teaches the trinity to the jews who had no such concept and simply believe that they automatically understood trinitarian references which is utter stupidity on their part... since people ONLY read their own experiences into words, not the intentions of authors... and if the author does not teach a trinity he cannot expect anyone who does not believe in one to automatically find one in his words.... trinitarians are brainwashed to accept this alien to jewish thought concept of a trinity first and then it is very easy to see one in words which had nothing to do with one.
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  27

  Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation;.

  colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;.

  colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.. colossians 1:18 and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.. colossians 1:19 for it was the good pleasure `of the father' that in him should all the fulness dwell; asv.

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  zen nudist
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  27

  what is the meaning of life??

  by zen nudist in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  .

  one thing which kept me trapped as a jw far longer than necessary was the fear that if i left and no longer believed, my life would be empty of meaning and futile and ultimately end in a meaningless death.

  i could not find any meaning in the world apart from the view jws had imposed upon me... all other ways seemed to lead only to meaninglessness.. but once out and even without a belief in any god[s] i still found my life meaningful but it took several years before i understood my new source of meaning and now see it as the only valid source... i will explain this after i see some of your ideas as i do not wish to bias your answers in advance.

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  zen nudist

  after leaving JWs I found that there is NO meaning OF life... but there is plenty of meaning found by the living.

  I first realized how the living find meaning by a comment made by a chess champ after defeating DEEP BLUE of IBM fame. He said that it was not like defeating a human player, there was no sense of victory over someone who realizes he was defeated... the computer does not care which way its play goes, win or lose there is no difference for it... unlike us. we FEEL pain and pleasure depending on outcomes and that is the key to finding meaning... we CARE about what is going on, we care about the outcome of our efforts and intentions. We gamble and experience the consequences. So simply put, things mean something because we are AWARE of how they can and do change us.
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  27

  what is the meaning of life??

  by zen nudist in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  .

  one thing which kept me trapped as a jw far longer than necessary was the fear that if i left and no longer believed, my life would be empty of meaning and futile and ultimately end in a meaningless death.

  i could not find any meaning in the world apart from the view jws had imposed upon me... all other ways seemed to lead only to meaninglessness.. but once out and even without a belief in any god[s] i still found my life meaningful but it took several years before i understood my new source of meaning and now see it as the only valid source... i will explain this after i see some of your ideas as i do not wish to bias your answers in advance.

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  zen nudist

  one thing which kept me trapped as a JW far longer than necessary was the FEAR that if I left and no longer believed, my life would be empty of meaning and futile and ultimately end in a meaningless death. I could not find any meaning in the world apart from the view JWs had imposed upon me... all other ways seemed to lead only to meaninglessness.

  but once out and even without a belief in any god[s] I still found my life meaningful but it took several years before I understood my new source of meaning and now see it as the ONLY valid source... I will explain this after I see some of your ideas as I do not wish to bias your answers in advance.
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  50

  How do we stop feeling like exjws?

  by Brummie in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i dont know.

  today i had an episode of dissociation, the feeling of being totally disconnected from everything and everyone.

  as if all of a sudden i knew no one or wasnt connected to anyone.

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  zen nudist

  ****In short, by being something else! IMHO a person will remain an "ex-Dub" for as long as they have nothing to replace it.

  or as long as they ignore the wholeness of their entire life experience and call themselves by only one aspect of their life.

  I WAS a Jehovah's Witness at one point in my life, I am a zen agnostic pragmatic pan-me-istic skeptic NOW.... among other things... if you insist on defining your self in terms of what you are not, you will have to add a whole lot more than just being an ex-JW... and you will have to ignore the fact that in another way you are really filled with many things which you do not identify as you but still have effect on your actions and thoughts.
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  27

  Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation;.

  colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;.

  colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.. colossians 1:18 and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.. colossians 1:19 for it was the good pleasure `of the father' that in him should all the fulness dwell; asv.

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  zen nudist

  If Yahweh is alone to be worshipped and will share his glory with no one, yet we are permitted to give honor, glory, worship and bent knees to the Son, this being possible with polarity in the Godhead.

  Kings who reigned in the name of YHVH were accorded all of the above, even being called Gods in the psalms as judges who sat upon the life and death judgement seat of YHVH.

  as to polytheism, pretending that three persons can be one god just because one claims it so does not make it so. the bible seems quite clear that each person of which only TWO are actual people... is independent of the other. Jesus can die, can be tempted with the possibility of leaving the service of God, is given authority, granted eternal life, given the scroll of power and prophecy from the one on the throne, etc. one of the basic tenents of the trinity is co-equality, yet there is not one verse which shows that God, the father is equal in any way to Jesus who is NEVER called God the son, but rather the son of God --Peter answered and was told this knowledge was of God [accurate].

  As to the use of Lord, the bible has many examples where it is use of men as a title of respect and that need not be explored further.

  as to when are people used by God and referred to as God acting... many times... YHVH raised up SAVIORS [deliverers], yet YHVH is the ONLY savior/deliverer... its not a contradiction, it is a different in view as to source verse means. even the name Jesus which means Domino's delivers, or YHVH saves/delivers shows that the man Jesus is the means as the christ [the chosen one of god-- a silly term if Jesus were God BTW] but YHVH is the source.

  one thing often missed by trinitarians... they never learned of the doctrine of trinity from the bible, they were taught it extra-biblically and then showen evidence for this outside teaching from all manner of OUT OF CONTEXT VERSES, by which I mean that not one of the so called trinitarian proof texts in context were speaking to the nature of God, but were instead about something else entirely... the only verse in the entire NT that seems to teach what and who God is relative to all other god[s] and lord[s] is 1 cor 8:5-6 which states quite clearly that OUR GOD IS THE FATHER and our LORD is JESUS which shows TWO not THREE in charge but only one of them TITLED GOD, the other the ANNOINTED KING.
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  27

  Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation;.

  colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;.

  colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.. colossians 1:18 and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.. colossians 1:19 for it was the good pleasure `of the father' that in him should all the fulness dwell; asv.

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  zen nudist

  **What is your take on 1Cor.8:6.

  1Cr 8:6

  But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him. --The term Lord was used as a term of respect, a title of slave masters, and of God... but God was generally not used as such.-- TWO beings mentioned, ONE of them is God... THE FATHER. seems clear enough.

  **Who does John the Baptist prepare a way for (Isa.40:3,10) ?

  **Who did John the Baptist identify as this "one" Jo. 1:23,30 ?

  Isa 40:3

  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the YHVH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Words are triggers of experiences not containers of meaning... what did the jews understand and think was meant? The concept of a trinity was common among the non-jews, but alien to the jews. It was not uncommon, however for the agent of God to be spoken of as the HAND of God, or for it to be said that God did something when what is meant is that God used someone to do it.

  **Who are the two spoken of in Jo. 1:18.

  Jhn 1:18

  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. if you have seen me you have seen the father... contradiction? or two different meanings of SEE? John 1:18 seem literal, precluding Jesus from being God since many supposedly saw him. while the second is figurative, like father like son, spitting image, likeness etc. [col 1:15]

  **If God does not share his glory with anyone (Isa. 42:8) why can Jesus share glory with God in Jo. 17:5?

  Isa 42:8

  I [am] YHVH: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. note- trinity claims 3 whos and one what... YHVH is one WHO and one WHAT. context wise this is referring to false god[s] has not relevant to Jesus who is the annoited [christ] King who acts for YHVH and represents him to man, sitting on YHVH's earth throne. ------------------------------------------- let my make my position clear, I am only arguing in context of the bible and none of this represents any of my own personal beliefs. Personally I believe YHVH is an all too human invention and I think the same for Jesus which I find lacks anything but scholarly support for historical existance... if there was a real Jesus, I doubt he was much like the mythology found in the bible.
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  27

  Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation;.

  colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;.

  colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.. colossians 1:18 and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.. colossians 1:19 for it was the good pleasure `of the father' that in him should all the fulness dwell; asv.

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  zen nudist

  *The last part of John 1:3 says "without him was not anything made that hath been made." This phrase qualifies the "all things" in the first part *of the verse as truely being "all things that were made" This phrase: "without him was not anything made that hath been made" clearly shows *that all things that have been made were made through Christ, not all "other" things.

  This in no way says that Jesus himself was not an exception to all things made. you are implying that Jesus and Jehovah are one person, which was considered a hearesy early on... the trinity is three persons in one god, not one person in three modes. Ps110:1 clear shows that David's lord was not the same as Jehovah whom he was with...as THE WORD is not THE GOD who he was with. and Jesus was not THE GOD at who's right hand he stood. etc. demanding that Jesus cannot be seen as part of all things made because of literal reading of words does not mean that the author had any intention in meaning that.--- words trigger experiences they do not contain the meaning. you read into my words your experiences not mine. we share enough common reality and culture to understand each other most of the time... but misunderstanding are very normal. to the reader to whom these words... not anything made that hath been made... were written, what meaning would they get seeing that there is no formal teaching that Jesus was God in that time period?
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  25

  When does it become a cult?

  by SpiceItUp in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  matty and i have gotten several books lately.

  right now we are both reading "30 years a watchtower slave" and "awakening of a jehovahs witness".

  both we highly recommend.. anyway in the midst of it all he asked me: when did it turn into a cult?.

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  zen nudist

  you could also say it becomes a cult when the beliefs of one man, one organization, or one group of people move from opinion to dogmatic authority which is beyond questioning....

  in one book I read, out of every twenty males born, there is a child who has natural leadership qualities... one of twenty leaders is a super leader... hold overs from alpha male gorillas[?] and people naturally gravitate to these leaders and will follow them even to the death.

  check it out-- those admired most as leaders, Politician, Clergy and Actors, are admired for the ability to lie their @$$3$ off and get away with it...

  taking this principle-- not all questions can be answered, all answered can be questioned. and each answer can spawn new questions... it become increasingly obvious that the more you learn the less you know... honesty leads to uncertainty and uncertainty is not a leadership quality. Leaders are quick and decisive decision makers because they have convinced themselves of rightness of their own cause or suppressed their fears to the point of seeming supremely confident to others.... it is not a co-incidence that CONfidence MEN are considered liars.

  Leaders have often proven themselves either insane or good liars, often a mix.... honest people have often been ignored because they take to long to do anything.... Fuzzy Logic is a relatively new science which can explain why leaders can make decisions fast.
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  28

  Belief-o-matic test

  by qwerty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know i know this as been done before , i fink!

  http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

  if you haven't taken the test before, give it a go see how far down the list if at all jw is.

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  zen nudist

  this supprized me

  1. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (100%)

  2. New Thought (83%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (82%) 4. Unitarian Universalism (80%) 5. Liberal Quakers (77%) 6. Scientology (77%) 7. Neo-Pagan (72%) 8. New Age (68%) 9. Taoism (66%) 10. Mahayana Buddhism (62%) 11. Bahá'í Faith (56%) 12. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (56%) 13. Hinduism (50%) 14. Secular Humanism (47%) 15. Theravada Buddhism (44%) 16. Reform Judaism (42%) 17. Jehovah's Witness (38%) 18. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (38%) 19. Orthodox Quaker (38%) 20. Sikhism (35%) 21. Nontheist (26%) 22. Jainism (20%) 23. Seventh Day Adventist (19%) 24. Orthodox Judaism (14%) 25. Eastern Orthodox (11%) 26. Islam (11%) 27. Roman Catholic (11%)